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dadmansabode - what if "through falt of your own" you avoid church ......... what kind of a sin is this ?
locksley69 - Sin is not only personal, dads, it also affects the community
dadmansabode mortal ?
locksley69 - dads, how about you let me answer one question at a time? Good idea?
locksley69 - You asked about bothering with a priest, you recall
dadmansabode a priest has the power to forgive sin/s ?
coronaspinarum - yes
locksley69 - i John 5:16 [16] He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask.
locksley69 - All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death.
dadmansabode "And there is a sin unto death." < like avoiding church or a holy day ?
locksley69 - You will notice, dads, that John makes a distinction between two types of sin
coronaspinarum - yes mortal to intentionally skip Sunday Mass
dadmansabode where does one go (in eternity) who dies w/ a mortal sin ?
locksley69 - The Church, in line with the 2nd Commandment, makes it precept that members MUST partake in worship on the Lords Day of the New Covenant, Sunday
dadmansabode where does one go (in eternity) who dies w/ a mortal sin ?
coronaspinarum - Hell
denise_farrel - there are times it seems we are just talking to a chatbot
locksley69 - Any deliberate action which is mortally sinful makes the person committing or omitting said sin, makes himself liable to hell
dadmansabode okay ..... you've answered my question .... thanks
dadmansabode . com
locksley69 - buy superpowerbuy drinkreplyflagAnd, as Jesus says in Mathew 25:41 ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
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locksley69 dads has been going in an out of the room for the past 3 days, dropping tiidbits of Scripture
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coronaspinarum Fr B can confirm our answers
coronaspinarum oh he left
Father Barnabas I did?
coronaspinarum no, dad did
Father Barnabas Ah.
Father Barnabas The answers look good.
coronaspinarum the 4 sins remain absolved, right?
coronaspinarum can't be unabsolved by hiding a sin?
locksley69 I thought the deliberate withholding of a sin makes the entire confession a waste of time and sacrilegious ...?
Father Barnabas Corona, yes, if a person willfully withholds a mortal sin in confession, all other sins confessed will not be forgivven.
locksley69 Corona was of the opinion that all 4 sins are absolved, even if the 5th sin is withheld
locksley69 eliberately
locksley69 d
Father Barnabas I think I remember reading a cartoon characterization of this in the Baltimore Catechism (which I think was outstanding for children): "If Johnny goes into the confessional with three sins and confesses only two, he comes out with five!"
Father Barnabas Oops he comes out with 4.
Father Barnabas Because the three were not forgiven and the 4th is now added: willfully withholding a mortal sin in confession.
Father Barnabas Naturally this is regarding the objective moral order. Subjectively, only God knows the degree of guilt attached to each individual sin.
Father Barnabas See "formal sin" and "material sin" in moral theology.
locksley69 If Johnny has 3 sins, and a 4th sin not deliberately unmentioned, how many sins has Johnny under his belt now?
locksley69 5, All 3 confessed sins, the unconfessed sin and the sin of sacrilege
Father Barnabas lol
Father Barnabas Catholic Maethematics.
Father Barnabas Mathematics
Father Barnabas "Material and Formal Sin — This distinction is based upon the difference between the objective elements (object itself, circumstances) and the subjective (advertence to the sinfulness of the act).
locksley69 My father used to be bothered that I did so poorly in mathematics. He was an accountant. I recall him telling my mother, "If it were 5 candlesticks and 12 crucifixed, he'd know in an instant"
locksley69 lol
Father Barnabas "An action which, as a matter of fact, is contrary to the Divine law but is not known to be such by the agent constitutes a material sin; whereas formal sin is committed when the agent freely transgresses the law as shown him by his conscience,
Father Barnabas "whether such law really exists or is only thought to exist by him who acts.
Father Barnabas "Thus, a person who takes the property of another while believing it to be his own commits a material sin; but the sin would be formal if he took the property in the belief that it belonged to another, whether his belief were correct or not."
Father Barnabas - Catholic Encyclopedia.
locksley69 You need to help me on that, Fr Barn - how can something be sinful - materially - if one is unaware of the sin?
Father Barnabas So in the example above, due to mitigating circumstances, God could be merciful.
locksley69 "Ignorance of the law is no excuse"?
Father Barnabas Locks because it still transgresses God's law.
Father Barnabas Let us say a person who is raised as a pagan sincerely believes he must offer a human sacrifice to appease his god.
locksley69 yes .. the nuns told us that such a person can still be saved
Father Barnabas And let us say that the victim is willing to be offered up as a sacrifice.
locksley69 okay
Father Barnabas The pagan priest who kills the victim transgresses God's law and commits a Material Sin, because it is the unjust taking of innocent human life, BUT...
Father Barnabas God can see according to his conscience that he was intending to do a perceived good.
locksley69 and therefore ....
Father Barnabas He therefore may be shown God's mercy and not incur the full guilt of committing a Formal Sin since he lacked sufficient knowledge and understanding.
Father Barnabas Now if he KNEW this was evil, that is a different matter.
Father Barnabas Then it would be a FORMAL sin.
coronaspinarum ok, my mistake, the sins confessed were confessed under the cloud of withholding one so the absolution was illicitly obtained and therefore null and void
Father Barnabas Corona, correct!
locksley69 so, in essense, lacking sufficient knowledge and understanding, the mortal sin becomes a venial sin ?
Father Barnabas No.
Father Barnabas It remains materially a mortal sin.
locksley69 But punished as if a venial sin ...?
Father Barnabas Mitigation removes the guilt normally attached to the act.
Father Barnabas Excuse me, LESSENS not removes.
locksley69 hence ...?
Father Barnabas No, "punishment" would be determined alone by God who alone knows the degree of knowledge and wrongdoing and any other mitigating circumstances such as mental defect.
Father Barnabas It is about OBJECTIVE SIN and SUBJECTIVE GUILT so to speak.
locksley69 understanding that God knows the extent, as described above the mortal sin wd not throw the pagan priest into hell\
Father Barnabas Oops... Correction... "... who alone knows the degree of knowledge and UNDERSTANDING
Father Barnabas Locks, correct.
coronaspinarum takes property of another believing it to be his own (but which in fact is not his own?) is a sin?
Father Barnabas If a person is not aware that he is transgressing the Divine Law, even though that person is committing a sin, God may be merciful.
Father Barnabas Corona yes MATERIALLY but not FORMALLY.
locksley69 So, two generations of men and women in Western civilization have been taught in schools that an embryo is merely a clump of cells and has no importance whatsoever. The formal sin of abortion is materially treated as less
coronaspinarum for certainly one should be able to take property that is in fact his own
Father Barnabas He has still done something OBJECTIVELY wrong even though he does not realize it.
coronaspinarum and not any kind of sin
Father Barnabas I do not care for the example used in the Catholic Encyclopedia.
coronaspinarum nor do I
Father Barnabas It's a bit "iffy" there.
coronaspinarum because it bypasses the question of self help in recovering property that does in fact belong to the taker
Father Barnabas I find it lacking and leads to confusion.
coronaspinarum sure does
Father Barnabas Well, moral theologians are not perfect.
locksley69 A little late to correct the Catholic Encyclopedia
Father Barnabas Locks, LOL true.
Father Barnabas I try to use examples when teaching that are more clear.
coronaspinarum look for the next edition "The New Equitable Catholic Encyclopedia"
Father Barnabas "Now updated and improved with inclusive language and gender neutral references to the Deity!"
locksley69 Sorry you missed dads... he wanted very much to do the usual "cut to the chase" and ignore details so he can think that Catholics are mistaken, and priests unnecessary and confession is mere popery
locksley69 The three Divine Its
Father Barnabas You mean it's not? You mean there is evidence in Sacred Scripture that actually supports the papist notion that Jesus Christ empowered man to forgive sins?"
locksley69 only 'in persona Christi' - it is Christ who forgives, not the priest
locksley69 I didn't get the chance to get to that point. Dads was in a hurry to go
coronaspinarum I suspect dad will be back
Father Barnabas Well, it is Christ who forgives with and through the actions of the priest.
locksley69 He's been here three times not including today, dropping stray bits of Scripture which he thinks will cause us to question the Faith
locksley69 of course Padre
locksley69 "and my own authority" isn't that part of the formual for absolution ?
Father Barnabas No.
locksley69 where did i get that?
Father Barnabas "God the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and
Father Barnabas I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son + and of the Holy Spirit. Amen."
locksley69 maybe it's part of a former formula for absolution
Father Barnabas Locks, it must be something you dreamed up "by your own authority."
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Father Barnabas Hello, MY
Father Barnabas Also, regarding the Sacrament of Penance, in 2023, there will be two subtle changes in the wording of the prayer of absolution, which the priest prays to conclude the sacrament.
Father Barnabas The new prayer will likely come into use in the United States beginning in 2023, though it will not be official until it is published by United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB).
Father Barnabas "God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son has reconciled the world to himself and poured out the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God grant you pardon and peace,
Father Barnabas "and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, [sign of the cross] and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."
coronaspinarum time for Zoom meeting translating the Bible
Father Barnabas Take care, Corona.
Father Barnabas "poured out the Holy Spirit " will take the place of "sent".
coronaspinarum why the change
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lightmyfire007 hey father
Father Barnabas And "grant " will substitute "give."
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locksley69 Back to the Catholic Encyclopedia for a moment ..
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Father Barnabas The translation of the original Latin text was recently confirmed by the Vatican, which included a slightly modified prayer of absolution.
20221020a ~ Question: ...... if someone walks into a confessional booth with 4 sins, but only discloses 3 of them (the 4th < no way) ...... does said sinner come out of the booth with 3 forgiven and still one not ?? and/or what is Sacrilege ?http://dadmansabode.com/c/CATHOLICISM/catholicism004.jpg
20221019b ~ Bible prophesy from 2000 years ago < The complete information God intended .... "It's amazing how dead on it is about what's going on today" ..
why would you gather Prophecy from anyone else ? ... what does Sheen say about the book of Revelation ?
locksley69 - have you seen this episode of Bishop Sheen's TV program - it's from about 1966 or later .. It's amazing how dead on it is about what's going on today
20221019a ~ please keep in mind .... Salvation does not come by self will / the will of man nor of family bloodline ...... Salvation (in Jesus Christ) comes only via the initiation of God .... Jn 1:13
locksley69 - Only among the members of the Novus Ordo Rite .. the Traditionalists are having babies all over the place and bringing them up Catholic
locksley69 - Beck does not know that the Faith these men believed is the same as that Faith expressed by the disciples of the Apostles, Ignatius and Polycarp, as, of course, the Catholic Faith is the same as taught in the New Testament.
.....